“During and after the War, badgers were never seen. . They were completely nocturnal and the vast majority just went their entire lives without ever seeing one. . To start seeing them in daylight during the 80s and 90s was an extraordinary sight for most of us.”

“"If most badgers in the UK were clean, how come they are not now?"

What a stupid question. I really give up with you.

The gassing of badgers ceased in the late 1970s and testing of cattle continued. . . In 1986, a total of 38,000 herds comprising 3,200,000 cattle were tested, resulting in the slaughter of just 506 cattle that reacted to the test.

Just 506 cattle that reacted to the test!!! . Why will you not accept that fact?

"Once a badger develops disease all the members of that social group are likely to become infected due to the confined living space in their underground tunnel systems, their highly gregarious nature and constant mutual grooming. But that seed of infection (the primary focus ) will usually only progress to produce disease and eventually death in a minority of cases. Latency is a feature of TB in many species and this is so in badgers and cattle. The bulk of infections in badgers, usually 70% or more will become latent or dormant. A small number of badgers may resolve the infection completely and self cure. But the latent infections remain fully viable and may breakdown under stress which may be of nutritional origin, intercurrent disease, senile deterioration or social disturbance and disruption. Some badgers may develop fulminating disease (Gallagher et al 1998). . Badgers with terminal generalised tuberculosis can excrete vast numbers of bacteria particularly when the kidneys are infected. Counts of several million bacteria in a full urination have been recorded (Gallagher and Clifton-Hadley, 2000)."”

“Flofflach - this is why people are still voting against the cull because there will be no distinguishing between setts off totally healthy badgers or setts of sick badgers. Very unfair.”

“Charlespk If most badgers in the UK were clean, how come they are not now?

Why did you bring up badgers & bTB in Scotland earlier when they was never a cull?

All I can deduce is that for a cull of badgers to work it has to be whole sett culling [as I said before & backed up by this research vet http://tinyurl.com/43r9e6m]. As was done in the past... You cannot cull out the infection in badgers [as you suggest] like you can in cows because they are not being tested.

When I hear farmers talking about how they are only wanting the unhealthy badgers killed and that is all that is going to happen [seen today on an interview on youtube], I realise that disinformation is rife on all sides.”

“This should be a link to Annex H

http://tinyurl.com/44pwb9w”

“Certainly some farmers are supporters of Bryan Hill's ideas, and such farmers do not want a cull on their land. There are also other farmers who for other reasons do not want a cull. The NFU certainly lacks 100% support for the proposed cull. These are "non-participants".(But they will never say so in public.)

Surprisingly the government is making a place for them in the cull proposals.

See Defra's latest cull consultation do***nts, and in particular :-

Annex H: Natural England's draft guidance to applicants on reasonable measures to reduce the detrimental impacts on non-participants.”

“I have been talking to a farmer friend of mine who has a dairy and beef herd and who farms a large estate. He has, over the past three or four years, been feeding vitamin and mineral enriched cakes to the badgers in the setts over his land. The badgers have been tested regularly over this time and none have proved positive for TB. Similarly non of his herds have proved positive for TB. This might just be a fluke but at least he is being pro-active and not reactive to the disease. Could other farmers not try this approach from today and see what happens. This way infected badgers could be wheedled out and not be left suffering from a long, slow painful death. If the government were that interested perhaps the badgers treated like this could be tagged the same way as their cattle and they could pay the farmers for doing this simple task. It obviously works. Most farmers are against the cull and the others will disagree to any pro-active approach anyway. I know this will take time and money but so is this ridiculous shoot for six weeks of the year approach.”

“I note that in today's Western Morning News _farming section_ there is a story that a Westcountry cheese maker has been approached by a retailer (a large one, so probably a major supermarket) asking about the production of cheese that could come from milk from farms that are allowing access for culling. The implication is that (some) people will not buy cheese that is from a culling zone.

Not something I approve of myself.

But then the idea of famers _happily_ shooting things willy-nilly can't be disassociated from those wonderful rural guardians, the Counrtyside Alliance, who really don't care a tinker's fart about wildlife or farmers (many farmers do not like hunting with hounds). They went to London to say "We want to kill things for fun". This stuff rubs off.”

“As I have been promoting the Video 'Bovine TB - A Way Forward', and you have now apparently watched it, I would like to put on record (again) that in my opinion, and probably most of those with any experience of bTB in animals that it is highly unlikely that West Devon beef farmer Bryan Hill would be able to distinguish whether or not a badger was clean, just by observing it. Only when one was was behaving differently and was obviously clinically sick.

If you listen to Dr John Gallagher, the veterinary pathologist again as he explains how animals present with the disease and the infection in different ways, it will be clearer why. . With alpaca for example symptoms aren't often shown until the illness is in its last stage. . What symptoms and their severity depends very much on the location of the inflammatory lesions.

You seem so naive Flofflach. Most badgers in the whole of the UK were once clean.

We once conquered this problem by clearing badger setts in the locality of herds and culling any reactor cattle. . The national herd was clear of disease and all herds in the UK were officially designated 'Brucellosis Free' in October 1985. . That is 'all such pathogens'.

With the discovery of Streptomycin and other antibiotics and drugs; we thought we had beaten tuberculosis and all the sanatoriums had long been closed. . . Then some in their mistaken wisdom decided the risk from badgers was by then minimal. . Well with the explosion in the badger population, we can all now all see just how 'minimal' that was.

The gassing of badgers ceased in the late 1970s and testing of cattle continued. . In 1986, a total of 38,000 herds comprising 3,200,000 cattle were tested, resulting in the slaughter of JUST 506 CATTLE that reacted to the test.

Please start to believe people like veterinary pathologist Dr John Gallagher and former senior medical microbiologist Dr Paul Gillet, even if you have already decided you don't like me telling you.

We all just want healthy badgers and a national cattle herd free from M.bovis again, and for the foreseeable future culling out the infection is the only way forward.

And 'disagree on badger culling' is a really facile remark. . There is no alternative. Doing nothing is not an option. We have to stop it becoming endemic in any more species; either farmed or in the wild.”

“Charlespk: Nobody has actually told me to think like that, I was merely applying logic. I don't recall reading the Badger Trust ever saying such as that - so you must have read more of their information than I have. Although I did find a research vet who is a specialist in the spread of animal disease who says something similar. Gasing the set was the old way wasn't it?

Badgers didn't get killed in Scotland to get healthy did they? We don't kill all cows just in case.

It seems 2ladybugs does actually know about TB in humans... in fact my brother and sister in law were being checked out for possible TB. My brother is fine but my sister in law is not.

I know people disagree on the issue of badger culling but I hope that more of us can agree that cattle measures and nutrition need to be looked at and a continuing support for vaccination. There are farmers who don't want badgers culled - some for selfish reasons such as having badgers, cattle and no bTB and vets have always said don't disturb your badgers if everything ok.”