“It's like most newspaper stories, incomplete and uninformative. Techniques and more importantly interpretations have become more sophisticated recently. The genetic maps I have seen seemed quite detailed as to provenance and made sense from what we know from history. Quite an unprovocative piece for the Mail.

I guess it's like a lot of things broad detail is easy, greater detail becomes less certain.”

“Carvath. Don't shoot the messenger. The comments in question were made very recently, and other Scientists around the Globe have long ago agreed it to be true. Neither can we have the situation, "my Prof is better than your Prof", or "Oxford Prof is better than London Prof". (Although I would like to believe it to be true)
I would agree DNA testing may help to a degree, but is not as reliable or significant as some would have us believe. Like many other scientific techniques available DNA sampling has limited applications and its findings should not be accepted as "Gospel truth".”

“I don't think there's any messenger to shoot? I agree with you. I don't think such studies have ever claimed anything else. Broad detail is all that's reasonably required for something as uncertain as provenance anyway.

Incidentally, there does seem to be a bit of rivalry between profs to a certain extent (on virtually all subjects) - research grants and all that...”

“"An interesting link about DNA. http://tinyurl.com/c6x9syf
Must be some comments to be made about this?"

This does'nt surprise me in the slightest, most nations are multi racial now in a time when gobalisation is on the rise.

if anything this is an early warning that nations/people should protect their cultures and identities as one day people may not know there ancestry.

all they'll know is where they come from and that will make them who they are..”

“"Steve Jones, emeritus professor of genetics at University College London, said: 'In a long trudge through history, two parents, four grandparents and so on, very soon everyone runs out of ancestors and has to share them.
'As a result, almost every Briton is a descendent of Viking hordes, Roman legions, African migrants, Indian Brahmins, or anyone else they fancy.'"

Basically, we are all human and this world did not come with sets of deeds to land or property. It is up to us to live together sensibly.”

“"As a result, almost every Briton is a descendent of Viking hordes, Roman legions, African migrants, Indian Brahmins, or anyone else they fancy.'

A nice riposte to the bunch of Ubber-Alles Celts we get here.”

“I shall be sticking with the letter I received from Oxford University. That's good enough for me.”

“by ThomasFlamank Thursday, March 07 2013, 8:56PM
"I shall be sticking with the letter I received from Oxford University. That's good enough for me."

Because it makes you feel a false superiority over the rest of us; why else would you be bothered that we are all, basically, from the same stock.”

“And your qualifications are what CallingtonFox? The only crushing arrogance and superiority bordering on facism appears to be coming from you, doesn't it? We are not all 'from the same stock' are we? Or else we would be black wouldn't we? Now take your English arrogance and depart.”

“Callington Fox,you state that modern Britons are decended from Vikings, romans etc etc...Yet you preach Anglo saxon/English supremacy as though it's the final piece in the evolutionary jigsaw puzzle of mankind?...The puzzle is far from complete...Anglo saxon/English supremacy is not the end of the story...Other peoples who do not subscribe to your views are on the march,and having their own say...The objective truth being you do not like it!!”

“Modern Britons are descended from,(very possibly), ever culture, tribe and ethnic background on the planet.

Neo-Celtic " exclusiveness" is not only inaccurate, it is close to racist, in my opinion.”

“Quote via the Daily Mail online:

"Steve Jones, emeritus professor of genetics at University College London, said: 'In a long trudge through history, two parents, four grandparents and so on, very soon everyone runs out of ancestors and has to share them.
'As a result, almost every Briton is a descendent of Viking hordes, Roman legions, African migrants, Indian Brahmins, or anyone else they fancy.'"

And from the Oxford University Genetic map of Britain team:

"Dr Bruce Winney of Oxford's Department of Oncology, a member of the research team cautions that these genetic differences that the project has found across the British Isles are small. We are far more genetically alike than we are different, he says."

Need I add more?”

“everywhere, please, read the words, stop just looking at them.”

“There is a huge difference between taking an interest in one's ancestry, heritage and history and using that ancestry, heritage and history as a "weapon".

"I am better than you because DNA tells me I am" is not acceptable in any society.”

“The Daily Mail. Mmmmm. An authoritative source then?

"Slimslad" then the very least you should do is to flag it to this websites moderators or the local police then, isn't it?

Or like "Taxman100" do you have a propensity to talking tripe?


J.T.
MA Celtic Studies; University of Wales (Trinity St. David) 2008”

“""The Daily Mail. Mmmmm. An authoritative source then?"

Are you serious? The words are those of an Emeritus Professor, Steve Jones, not the Daily Mail. The fact that you made such a statement shows how desperate you are not to see anything beyond your own little world.”

“"CallingtonFox" your dependance on secondary sources displays all the aspiration and ability of an 'O' level student. Your "Taxman100" has similar traits.

This quite simply fails to impress me and one might suppose, many others.

Secondary sources are unreliable particularly when used in the tabloid press. I have met Professor J.S. Jones after one of his lectures and he is often misquoted. The fact that you use the word 'emeritus' in such terms indicates your level of education in this subject.

Go to the original source. I refer you to a paper on the subject by Professor Peter Donelly FRS, FMedSci, Professor of Statistical Science and Fellow of St. Anne's College, Oxford. His expertise in gene mapping and early human evolution far exceeds that of Professor Jones.

Go to Oxford and read his papers. I have and indeed have some copies here.

Until then, gain some maturity, quote accurately from directly sourced material and respectfully, stop babbling about something of which you very apparently know little but which you misquote to your own biaised viewpoint.

To continue do so might just gain you that 'O' level but little else.

Whilst you are at it, read something of Professor Thomas Charles-Edwards' work. I strongly suspect much of it would be beyond you, with every respect, because more than a superficial acquaintance with Celtic Studies is required, but you might find his papers instructive. Of further excitement to you, is the fact that he is also an 'Emeritus' academic at Oxford but is one of few to hold the post of Jesus Professor of Celtic.

Until such time as you are some way to gaining proper insight into the subject, I strongly suggest you desist from your inclination to flood this forum with half researched and poorly referenced garbage.

I am certainly better schooled in Celtic Studies than you. I have also travelled extensively as a research assistant and require you to withdraw the final line of your posting.

J.T.
MA Celtic Studies; University of Wales (Trinity St. David) 2008”

“Incidentally, I am assuming the the phrase 'O' level would be better understood by you than 'GCSE'.

J.T.
MA Celtic Studies; University of Wales (Trinity St. David) 2008”

“You can assume what you like about me and what I know or am qualified in, I really do not care. I also withdraw nothing; are you so arrogant as to assume you are the be all and end all in so called Celtic studies, along with your oft quoted authors? Who do you think you are? Why do you not like having your views challenged, not just by myself, but others, ones who have written books and are, at least, as qualified in the subject?

You arrogantly dismiss anyone who does not agree with you and have the gall to attempt to put me down when I have actually bothered to research both sides of the argument. You are so angry with me for not rising to your bait and listing everything I am qualified in. All I will reveal to you, once more, is that I am more than adequately qualified to take part in this entire debate.”

“I find 'TheCelt's' postings very interesting. Sometimes internet trolls like 'CallingtonFox' who remain merely that, trolls, don't care to be put right over a few things. They also find the lack of control they have frustrating. Such frustration is extremely well borne out in his wild rants and his desperate trawling of internet sources to back up his flimsy posts. Nevertheless, it is great fun to watch his false indignation and wild thrashing about. He also assumes that others care about his utter nonsense. That is what makes this forum such fun.

No formal qualifications. Just a man of the people of Cornwall.”

“MS, such assumptions do you no favours but what do you care? Never mind, keep dreaming.”

“Incidentally, did TC withdraw his thread? I did not mind him posting it at all so if he did not withdraw it, who asked for it to be?”

“Off stamps Foxy somewhere. Failed dismally on all fronts. The GCSE wannabe goes back to re study his red tops having decided to continue living in his own fantasy world.

Now Foxy...those qualifications would be what, exactly...?”

“Seeing as you are addicted to the Daily Mail, Foxy, take a read:

http://tinyurl.com/72tto9a

For the truest Brits, go west: Welsh and Cornish are most ancient Britons DNA analysis finds

By Daily Mail Reporter

PUBLISHED:02:46, 18 June 2012| UPDATED:07:52, 18 June 2012


Welsh and Cornish people have always proudly claimed to be the most ancient of Britons.

Now gene scientists have confirmed it's true.

They studied the DNA of thousands of people in rural areas of the nation for at least four generations and worked out where their ancestors came from.

The most British: A study has found that Welsh and Cornish people are among the most genetically distinct Britons on the mainland and carry DNA from the tribes that colonised Britain in the last Ice Age

The results show that those from Cornwall and Wales are among the most genetically distinct Britons on the mainland and carry DNA from the tribes that colonised Britain in the last Ice Age.

In contrast, those from central and south-east England are a 'genetic cocktail' with ancestors from tribes that invaded the British Isles.

Peter Donnelly, professor of statistical science at Oxford University, said the study also showed that those from Norfolk, who claim descent from the Iceni, a tribe led by warrior queen Boadicea, are genetically very similar to people from the West and South.

It also found that Scots had strong genetic similarities to the northern English.


Unsurprisingly, the most genetically distinct of all Britons did not hail from the mainland but from islands.

The genes of the people of the Orkneys are Scandinavian due to the fact the islands were controlled by Vikings from AD875 to 1472.


In the study, which will be presented at the Royal Society's summer science exhibition this summer, Mr Donnelly and his colleagues analysed the genetic make-up of 2,000 Britons.

The subjects, who had to be rural dwellers with at least four grandparents born in the same area, had 500,000 points in their DNA studied.

Scientists then worked out how distinct their DNA was from surrounding regions and the country as a whole.


Good isn't it Foxy? And in a tabloid you can understand too. But of course, it's all made up, isn't it?”

“Hey, but here it is in the Torygraph. Mind you, that is a paper for the grown ups Foxy:

http://tinyurl.com/cm2bc2h”

“Are you still deluding yourself, TT. Give yourself a break.”

“90% of people in Cornwall were born outside Cornwall .”

“More to the point Foxy and your obscene little frined, are you?”

“So some Daily Mail article mentioning academics are acceptable if they fit in with your racist views then CallingtonFox? But others not. I would say you needed psychiatric help and soon.

55% o people who live in London aren't British or even English. It's still London though isn't it fetishist? Go away and read up a bit before you bother posting here, eh?”

“"Slimslad" then the very least you should do is to flag it to this websites moderators or the local police then, isn't it?

Or like "Taxman100" do you have a propensity to talking tripe?


J.T.
MA Celtic Studies; University of Wales (Trinity St. David) 2008"

I think I said "in my opinion"?

Why should I "flag" anything to "moderators or the local police"?

Slimslad

Fork-truck license.2013”

“"It's still London though.."

Yes and it is still part of England, Great Britain and the United Kingdom; so your point is?”

“...they are not keen on freedom of expression slim.....”

“Interesting BBC article about the Welsh and Cornish being the most ancient in the 'UK'

http://tinyurl.com/82wplmg”

“We are Cornish, not English: http://tinyurl.com/ajzo52p”

“Here is, once again, a link to Oxford University web-site page regarding the DNA project: http://tinyurl.com/8jzngyo

For those who want to preach some kind of racial purity should avoid reading this quote from one of the team members, Dr Bruce Winney:

"He cautions that these genetic differences that the project has found across the British Isles are small. We are far more genetically alike than we are different, he says."

Only racial hatred prevents anyone from accepting that statement of fact. One of them, afraid of being confronted, will now probably have this post removed.”

“Fascinating and the little map confirms everything. We and the Welsh are different. Very different and not English.”

“That lovely distinctiveness.

"On the genetic map of Britain, Cornish people clustered separately from those from Devon"”

“TT, do you deny the truth of this statement by Dr. Winney?

"He cautions that these genetic differences that the project has found across the British Isles are small. We are far more genetically alike than we are different, he says."”

“I think you're clutching at straws here callingtonFox, it's one sentence by one person, probably taken out of context. The whole article is about subtle differences, obviousy not large differences but differences none the less. You constantly referring to this tries to take the whole thrust of the article away, like political spin often attempts to do.

You should also note from the above reference another of your attempted myths/deconstructions being dealt with:

http://tinyurl.com/d62ydse”

“CF, do you deny the truth of this statement contained in the report?

"On the genetic map of Britain, Cornish people clustered separately from those from Devon"”

“Oh for the love of all things decent; you two are truly beyond reality. Why are you so desperate to be different unless it is for racist reasons? You are only seeing what suits your racist agenda; I, however, have no problems being from the same basic stock as you regardless of your delusions.”

“More hyperbole CallingtonFox but no real response. The article is nothing to do with racism, it's about provenance and historical points of interest.

The second article refutes your denial claims - again no response. You clearly have bitten off more than you can chew.”

“Keep on deluding yourself then. And if you think that anyone claiming a racial purity that makes them so obviously feel superior is not racist then you are in denial for sure.”

“Well done for seeking primary source material CallingtonFox and I am pleased you took my advice. But alas, as can sometimes happen, you have painted yourself into a corner. May I suggest, respectfully and without any abuse, that you now concede this particular point and accept that you have lost? It might be for the best, you know. There are clear genetic variations at base level and that fact is there for all to see.

J.T.
MA Celtic Studies; University of Wales (Trinity St. David) 2008”

“In fairness, CallingtonFox, the only poster I see referring to racial purity is you. The others appear to be discussing genetic difference. Perhaps you should examine your own motives, important if you are to follow a course of study. Well done for seeking primary material though. I just hope you carry on doing so and don't feel too deflated over this.

J.T.
MA Celtic Studies; University of Wales (Trinity St. David) 2008”

“No one is saying these things CallingtonFox, only you inferring them. It's a scientific report for gods sake and people are only describing the findings.”

“Carry on deluding yourselves then; it is your choice. TC, I need no advice from you, but note your arrogance in assuming I do.”

“I conclude, TheCelt, "MA Celtic Studies; University of Wales (Trinity St. David)" believes himself to be superior to all others, and his mindboggling and offensive arrogance and egotism must not go unchallenged. He attempts to belittle any person who does not accept his interpretation of various scientific papers, including, CallingtonFox, st-fetishist and Taxman100. How arrogant! Also, he courts controversy by attempting, indirectly, to malign two greatly respected Science Professors from UCL, Jones and Balding. Is that what we would expect of an Arts graduate and member of the Teaching profession?
TheCelt further informs us he has read many scientific papers; yet does not do so with an open mind; critical in the sciences. Had he have done so he would have noted the general consensus within the scientific community is that the three Professors, Donelly, Jones, and Balding do not disagree significantly on this matter, and the comments attributed in the Daily Mail to Professor Jones and Balding are broadly accepted within the community.
If we follow his general argument, here and in other sections of this forum, TheCelt believes lay persons are not capable of participating in debates such as these; as they are insufficiently educated, lack the correct knowledge, skills and abilities to carry out the relevant research and present their findings in a manner he, superciliously , would find acceptable. Obviously, he is not aware lay persons have often participated in and carried a debate in some of our greatest scientific institutions and universities. If we were to follow his line of reasoning to a conclusion then it may suggest an Arts graduate may not contribute to a science subject debate; which is totally absurd!
TheCelt further states, "I am certainly better schooled in Celtic Studies than you. I have also travelled extensively as a research assistant and require you to withdraw the final line of your posting". May I respectfully suggest CallingtonFox ignores such petulance, self-importance, and egotism, as it is what the comment merits.
I am sure TheCelt would not wish to be belittled by others, yet he uses, "MA Celtic Studies; University of Wales (Trinity St. David)" as if it were a Badge of Honour. He would do well to reflect on the following: In the 2013 list of the UK's Universities, the University of Wales (Trinity St. David), is listed modestly in 104th place (out of 116 listed), http://tinyurl.com/5rkd3ph, and is not considered worthy of entry in the Global 100 list of Top Universities or the International league of the top 250 universities. Would St. David's be the University of First Choice for an exceptionally talented and gifted student?
TheCelt insists on being made aware of the educational achievements of everyone who participates in this debate: on this single occasion I will do so, but under normal circumstances I would not be so haughty or egotistical.
PT: Ph.D., (Mathematical sciences); MSc, (Physical sciences), Oxbridge.”

“Good God, what an unreadable morass and from one who claims to be so well qualifed. Well, it speaks volumes for standards of education - bad punctuation, incorrect use of semi colons, split infinitives, massively incorrect useage of capital letters, wrong use of tense - the list could continue! I would be strongly suspicious of this poster's qualifications which are not even correctly recorded. Indeed, I would even go as far as to say they were a complete fraud.

The bottom line:

On the genetic map of Britain, Cornish people clustered separately from those from Devon"

http://tinyurl.com/8jzngyo

Doctorate, University of Life and former grammar school boy

PS. come back 'The Celt' - would love to hear your comments on the 'academic' (lol) above”

“Very interesting this.


Philipa-Jane Pentreat
.

Username: CelticLass

Position: Team Leader Research Development (Oxon)
.

And other details such as place of residence etc.

I have just phoned Personnel Services at Oxford University. The person there kindly did a search of the personnel files attempting to help me contact this individual. That search covered people working directly for the University and those approved people contracted in. There is no record of the above at all. No security pass in that name has ever been issued. The qualifications have also been incorrectly recorded - massively so. The personnel department suggested all correspondence from this person be treated as 'fraud'”

“"'We might be seeing the result of Anglo-Saxon invasions pushing other peoples down into Cornwall or Wales,' he suggests. 'Or we might be seeing how Britain was recolonised after the ice ages. The West of our islands may have been peopled by movement up the coastal areas from Atlantic-facing Europe, whilst the southeast was influenced by pre-Anglo-Saxon movements from the area that now spans Denmark to Belgium. These patterns may then have been reinforced by the Anglo-Saxon invasions much later.'

However, he cautions that these genetic differences that the project has found across the British Isles are small. We are far more genetically alike than we are different, he says".

Truronian, split infinitives are a matter of choice and have been used for generations.
I assure you my qualifications are as stated, and have been stated correctly.”

“Well said CelticLass.”

“Very interesting this.


Philipa-Jane Pentreat
.

Username: CelticLass

Position: Team Leader Research Development (Oxon)
.

And other details such as place of residence etc.

I have just phoned Personnel Services at Oxford University. The person there kindly did a search of the personnel files attempting to help me contact this individual. That search covered people working directly for the University and those approved people contracted in. There is no record of the above at all. No security pass in that name has ever been issued. The qualifications have also been incorrectly recorded - massively so. The personnel department suggested all correspondence from this person be treated as 'fraud'

On the genetic map of Britain, Cornish people clustered separately from those from Devon"

http://tinyurl.com/8jzngyo”